Collusion

[happydel]

Ok I appreciate this is not an all inner issue but felt this the best place to post.

I have thought long and hard about posting this as I dont think that it is an accusation that should be made lightly.

This issue concerns the Buyin at Bodog on Wed evening.

The situation 4 players left, 3 to pay.

bmw608 $7822.50
pumpdoc £3530
happydel15 $7277.50
crazyacessuited $870

all anti $50

happydel15 small blind $200
crazyacessuiued bog blind $400

bnw608 call
pumpdoc call
happydel15 fold
crazyacessuited check

pot $1600

flop 7c 3s Jd

crazyaces check
bmw608 check
pumpdoc bet $400

crazyaces ALL IN $420
bmw608 fold
pumpdoc FOLD

crazyaces wins $2400


How the hell can you justify folding a $2400 pot for an additional $20 that will take a player out of the game. Even if it is a bluff to get them to fold with 2 cards to come the pot odds you are getting are 120:1. The best hand crazyaces could have been holding is a set of Jacks and whatever cards that pumpdoc had he has outs to take the pot. He cant even say he rushed he took 16 seconds to decide to fold.

The only explanation to my mind is that this was a chip dump and therefore blatent cheating. I have enough league play experience to spot this going on, these guys made no attempt to take each other out throughout the game but this one example highlights the fact.

I would post a screen shot but cant see how to do it.

I am very interested to hear the explanation here.


 



 

[spitoon]

Not saying that he id do it as I wasn't there. This might sound like a stupid question as I'm not sure if mentioned or not but; did the guy time out before he had a chance to Call?

spit ..

[Wacker514]

To take a SS just hit the "Print Screen" key on your keyboard then go into a program like Paint and hit Paste. You can then cut it down to show only what you want to, make it bigger, smaller, etc. Then just host it up at a site like imageshack.us, and post it up wherever you want.  just for future reference.

And given this situation... if he wasnt timed out, it sounds like posible collusion for sure.

[happydel]

Thanks for the response.

In answer to your question no he wasn't timed out.

[Tomatillo]

Your suspision of collusion was based on many other less blatant observations as well I'm sure.  

I have been guilty of folding a giant pot for insignificant amounts myself.  I usually play several tournaments at once and do not give proper attention to any.  I take 2 seconds to glance at my hand and see that someone raised and I fold.  

I certanally I wouldn't do that accidentally on a final table that close to the money in a tournament I paid for.

Bugsys gets me at least once each tourney because of the order of their buttons.

[Tomturkey46]

And I had that happen to me at Bugsys too!  Accused of recieving a chip dump from a player who was timing out at a table I was at.  Bugsys closed my account and took over $60 that was in it.

                                     The Turkey :evil:  :twisted:

[VoC]

timing out eh? yea right.. taking the near max amount of time and folding to your small all in isn't timing out.. notice I said near max as we all saw he'd allways have about 2 seconds left to act.. if he had timed out bugsy probably wouldn't have suspected anything.. just a poor connection or something along those lines.. next time when u guys cheat get your story str8 and don't make it so obvious.. just so everyone else knows what I'm talking about.. these guys would raise it a huge amount pre flop then the other would call leaving himself with VERY little chips left and then go all in on the flop.. like 200 chips into a 6k pot.. then the other guy would as he was allways did take allmost the max time and fold.. the only time he ever called u was when u had 2 pair and you over bet.. it was obvious u2 was chatting in a private room.. and it was obvious he was dumping chips 2u when u donked the rest of them away.. so pardon me for not feeling for your loss as u wouldn't have had that money if u2 didn't chip dump to each other... u should have been out a long time ago and u know it.. so go cry me a river cause we never saw one in that game when u2 was in the hand..

[Tomturkey46]

timing out eh? yea right.. taking the near max amount of time and folding to your small all in isn't timing out.. notice I said near max as we all saw he'd allways have about 2 seconds left to act.. if he had timed out bugsy probably wouldn't have suspected anything.. just a poor connection or something along those lines.. next time when u guys cheat get your story str8 and don't make it so obvious.. just so everyone else knows what I'm talking about.. these guys would raise it a huge amount pre flop then the other would call leaving himself with VERY little chips left and then go all in on the flop.. like 200 chips into a 6k pot.. then the other guy would as he was allways did take allmost the max time and fold.. the only time he ever called u was when u had 2 pair and you over bet.. it was obvious u2 was chatting in a private room.. and it was obvious he was dumping chips 2u when u donked the rest of them away.. so pardon me for not feeling for your loss as u wouldn't have had that money if u2 didn't chip dump to each other... u should have been out a long time ago and u know it.. so go cry me a river cause we never saw one in that game when u2 was in the hand..

Interesting!  Where you the one who complained?  As I do not know you or agentkgb the charge of collusion is out the window.  But the action taken by Bugsys to me was unfair as the action WAS DONE without any notice to me or any chance to rebutt to the charge.  I was NOT at any chat room or anything else at the time.  The player was timing out all the time while I and he where at another table which YOU were not at.  His action was not unusual to me and your reaction, well, I will not get into it.

                                  The Turkey :twisted:  :evil:

[Bucnright]

OK I have not commented because I was not at the table during these hands and did not see what happened.

I do know most sites will view the hand history of the game if there is any chance they suspect anything they will close the players account. Most sites also have a way that you can dispute the charge. It is real hard to get them to reverse there decission but I have seen it done. When the integrity of the site is being challenged by another player it is in the sites best interest to take a firm stand.

Now I can tell you last night in the Jungle poker freeroll I was called a cheater by a member here. I was BB with no raise and had an open ended str8 flush draw after the flop he bet 90 chips when blinds were 30 so I called. I hit the str8 flush on the turn and then slow played. About four hands later I had pocket 8's this was the first hand I played since the str8 flush. He raised all-in for 850 chips with AQ offsuit and I called the flop was 10 8 8. The member then called me a cheater. I can tell you if I ever had a way to control the cards on a site I would not be in a $50 freeroll.

[betty6263]

Well I for one and the others here too buc, know you are not a cheater.
That member really had some nerve calling you a cheater.  
Especially when you are the one that set that game up for him and others.
He was just another one of those sore losers out there that can't handle being beat.
It's poker, it's a gamble, you take a chance, if one can't handle losing some hands and thinks they should win every time, then they should get out of the game all together.  Otherwise they are going to be one upset disappointed person most of the time.  What fun is that?
Like you said buc, if you could control the cards, why even mess with a $50 freeroll, let alone all the work and dedication you put in to this forum and each of the others you own or partner with.  You could just sit in front of the pc for a few hours a day everyday and just be raking in the dough.
Heck, you could even make more money if you sold your secret.  LOL!!  :wink:
So, I guess I'll keep seeing you around and helping you out in the forums buc, cause I know you don't control the cards.

Proud to be your Mod!!
Betty  

[VoC]

[/quote]Interesting!  Where you the one who complained?  As I do not know you or agentkgb the charge of collusion is out the window.  But the action taken by Bugsys to me was unfair as the action WAS DONE without any notice to me or any chance to rebutt to the charge.  I was NOT at any chat room or anything else at the time.  The player was timing out all the time while I and he where at another table which YOU were not at.  His action was not unusual to me and your reaction, well, I will not get into it.

                                  The Turkey :twisted:  :evil:[/quote]

first of all I was not one of the people who contacted bugsy.. I also can understand why you'd want a warning.. so u could take the money u won unfairly out of the site.. now as for timing out.. again it never happend.. he allways had time left and he allways hit the fold button.. now its understandable this could happen once but 3-4 times.. I think not.. if this is your only excuse then it a poor one as it did not happen.. and it would be highly strange as is that he would only time out after making big bets and only when you have called.. but if it did happen this way you'd still have your account active and still have the money you won.. but admiting you were in another game just adds more suspision to your case and I find it very hard to believe he was timing out at that table aswell.. since it was clear that he didn't time out at the table I'm talking about..

I have personaly been called a cheat loads of times most just from a player who was angry that I hit my hands.. and knowing that loads of people mistakeninly call players cheaters just because they are angry at them this is not the case in this situation.. it was clear u2 were talking to each other in a another game or private room and dumping chips to each other when one needed it.. people making mistakes happen.. especialy at a site like bugsy but 3-4 times against the same player in such a short amount of time is a little to suspicious for my liking and I completly understand why some of the players at your table contacted bugsy to check it out.. remember suspision isn't enough but they found proof that he was laying down hands to your 1-5% of the pot bets and only calling your over bets when u was a clear favorite.. so you can't blame anyone but yourselves..

[Tomturkey46]

OK I have not commented because I was not at the table during these hands and did not see what happened.

I do know most sites will view the hand history of the game if there is any chance they suspect anything they will close the players account. Most sites also have a way that you can dispute the charge. It is real hard to get them to reverse there decission but I have seen it done. When the integrity of the site is being challenged by another player it is in the sites best interest to take a firm stand.

Now I can tell you last night in the Jungle poker freeroll I was called a cheater by a member here. I was BB with no raise and had an open ended str8 flush draw after the flop he bet 90 chips when blinds were 30 so I called. I hit the str8 flush on the turn and then slow played. About four hands later I had pocket 8's this was the first hand I played since the str8 flush. He raised all-in for 850 chips with AQ offsuit and I called the flop was 10 8 8. The member then called me a cheater. I can tell you if I ever had a way to control the cards on a site I would not be in a $50 freeroll.

Darn, Buc, I wish I was that lucky.  As for the rest, you can see the comments of VoC about the Bugsys problem and I will not bother now to make any more comments.  I t is just not worth it any more.  I have had my say and I will stand by what I said.  To all others out there, I would say, if the cards come right for somebody else, say NH and get on with your life.

                                      The Turkey

[betty6263]

Say NH and get on with your life.  Nicely put.  
You're right tho.  Some seem to think they should win them all.
There's times the cards do fall your way too.
If you can't bring yourself to say NH when they don't, then don't say anything.

Betty  

[FloppyJo]

Kudos to Bugsys for looking out for the players concern. Apparently they must have noticed some kind of conspicuous pattern for them to have banned you. It would suck though to get banned if you didn't really do anything.

I too have missed obvious call situations solely because I was occupied elsewhere. Whenever I miss a perfect opportunity like that I can only kick myself in the arse and promise myself I will pay better attention to the things going on around me. Too many times I have had just seconds to act and most every one of those times I have made bad decisions because of my lack of focus.

Not saying that is what was going on there, but I can understand somewhat. If it was a repetitive and ongoing thing, damn right I would be suspicious too.  This game is hard enough without having to worry about cheats too.

[jsaw]

Happydel  - it  is a strange play to fold with 120 to 1.  I agree with the post that described doing the same thing because he was playing four tourneys; I have probably done the same thing - but not intentionally.  However, the  16 second delay appears to be a crude attempt to indicate he was on a difficult decision - when, of course, he was not.   I admire you picking off this classic chip shift  and hope you list the names of the two players involved.

The worst case I witnessed was on Canbet when they had the Monday night $1000 freeroll.  There were five Romanians at my table.  The SB (big stack) bet 4xBB pre flop, a continuation bet on the flop, a half pot  bey on the turn, then folded on the river.  The BB, the short stack, simply called and collected the pot.